Server: KQM | Genshin Impact (763583452762734592) Channel: elemental-burst-zoom-cancel (815411615322341406) Messages: 200 randomspades#0956 (623301626597343247) Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUG#0111 (142979124695138304) euphorysm#9060 (595029543803420702) Not idle | Lost Prayer(s)#5959 (321245170685181953) just-the-right-size mouse#9293 (140866779894251520) Yuehai Ticketing Secretary#4843 (557628352828014614) Charliex3000 | Non whale Charlie#9403 (294576257448804352) Faranight | Widsith Shill#0001 (66819579678031872) Keqing's Eternal Assistant#1536 (235148962103951360) Neptunya, the one true Nep#8291 (334371668367769601) JonahFarc | Git Archon#7056 (143207954814992385) KQM | Genshin Impact - elemental-burst-zoom-cancel
KQM | Genshin Impact
200 messages
randomspadesFeb 28, 2021 5:35 AM
yeah that sounds good
tomorrow I'll try getting clips for geo MC tech and stuff like that(edited)
$rename elemental-burst-zoom-cancel(edited)
Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGFeb 28, 2021 6:06 AM
Made these screenshots a long time ago using this tech.
Never thought of using this to dash cancel animations.
randomspadesFeb 28, 2021 6:12 AM
oh nice!
so it works with even lower terrain
I've seen clipping on ganyu's ult before though on boss mobs. It seems to be a lower angle camera.
randomspadesFeb 28, 2021 3:09 PM
Geo MC Zoom Cancel
I've tested this for geo MC now
It can cancel Keqing Barbara and Diluc's elemental burst zoom in animation(edited)
might be a useful strategy if co-op raids were a thing
looks like this has been known as @Not idle | Lost Prayer(s) was pointing out, but it would still be cool to have a record of all the characters that can take advantage of this tech. I also want to know how far this goes(edited)
I guess the big question is if zhongli can do it and if so does that save frames from his ult?
This one is recorded at 60 fps btw
randomspadesFeb 28, 2021 5:34 PM
Wake of Earth Cancels Zoom
this one seems more usable in combat imo
I've also edited out my uid because of the whole situation with 3rd party top up
euphorysmMar 1, 2021 12:49 AM
works with qiqi jean and klee too (these gifs are in 10 fps)
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 1:03 AM
wow! Thanks so much!
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 1:22 AM
The klee one seems really fast
maybe an editor could rename this to elemental burst zoom cancel now that we're trying to figure it out for all the 5 stars
btw, does imgur downscale the frame rate?
euphorysmMar 1, 2021 1:39 AM
i managed to get a higher frame rate for them, i'll reupload
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 1:49 AM
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 2:32 AM
I have a theory that geo shields from mitachurls count..... (and could be used for the zoom cancel) I might be able to test that tomorrow(edited)
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 3:47 AM
I found a tree that's large enough to reliably perform this on but small enough that its less than the radius of zhongli pillar.(edited)
so you can get zoom cancel with hitlag (a real edge case scenario lol)(edited)
(maybe this is known already)
special tree (turns out this tree is not so special but still good for testing)(edited)
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 4:58 AM
from watching zhongli streams, it looks like zhongli's ult is still the same amount of time with zoom cancel, but it might display damage slightly quicker. Hard to tell though because of the explosion at the end of his bursts.(edited)
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 5:07 PM
So it seems like the majority of the benefit of this technique actually would go to mobile users(edited)
On PC, the inputs of a dash cancel can be continuously registered, but on mobile, there is no way to input a dash during the ult active hitbox and start up frames without a zoom cancel technique(edited)
This allows mobile users to more easily dash cancel ults like keqing's ult.
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 5:18 PM
I might be counting wrong but there seems to be a very minor frame difference from this. I've counted keqing's ult at 205 frames before normal attack and E redisplay with zoom cancel vs. 231 frames before normal attack and E redisplay without zoom cancel.
randomspadesMar 1, 2021 11:10 PM
because this isn't pinned and I changed the writeup(edited)
randomspadesMar 2, 2021 2:57 AM
I've tried a bunch of times with mitachurl shields
with no success
Not idle | Lost Prayer(s)Mar 2, 2021 5:23 AM
it maybe that objects that cant be destroyed by a character cannot trigger this effect(edited)
you can try it on a random breakable barrel and see if the animations are cancelled
if it does not, my hypothesis might be true(edited)
randomspadesMar 2, 2021 3:31 PM
hmm I'll try that
It's just that samachurl pillars work which would be a counterexample
just-the-right-size mouseMar 2, 2021 10:22 PM
fo mitachurl shields, I'm particularly unsure whether the shield changes the hitbox of a mitachurl or not. It's likely it doesn't work with a Mitachurl because it doesn't change their hitbox anyway. IIRC all enemies have a spheroid hitbox, hence why when run + jumping towards many of the enemies you can kind of ride up some sort of imaginary slope and gain some additional height for plunging attacks. Things like Samachurl Pillars, and maybe other destructibles work because they have a way different hitbox. this is all theory for now though
randomspadesMar 2, 2021 11:48 PM
Yeah that makes much more sense
that would explain why zoom cancel doesn't work for most mobs(edited)
randomspadesMar 3, 2021 12:09 AM
Diluc was taller than a breakable barrel or box and I didn't find a breakable that matched his height so it(edited)
didn't work for diluc but worked for barbara also worked for keqing(edited)
Keqing Barrel Zoom Cancel
The test with keqing is especially nice because it shows that the barrel only needs to be present at the beginning in order to force a zoom cancel. Also shows that the ult can damage objects(edited)
randomspadesMar 3, 2021 3:10 AM
from trying to do further testing with mitachurls with geo/cryo shields, it seems that the hitbox is spherical as denmax said it was. That would mean that in theory it might be possible to proc a zoom cancel off of a mitachurl but in practice this would be near impossible(edited)
randomspadesMar 3, 2021 4:23 AM
I got hu tao so I can test if her elemental burst zoom cancels
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 1:29 AM
Hu Tao Zoom Cancel
Hu tao Zoom Cancels
I'll also take the pictures of ganyu and the zoom cancel I've seen on OK code's stream of Zhongli as evidence that zhongli and ganyu can zoom cancel(edited)
Ok Code's stream at 7:49
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 2:03 AM
Primo geovishap is very hard to test with same with wolf(edited)
Primo geovishap has a weird hitbox too where you can move through the front legs(edited)
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 2:17 AM
You can't can proc a zoom cancel off of Dvalin(edited)
It even clips through the boss
What happed to the theory JeanHands
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 2:25 AM
After doing some testing, the character has to be right against Dvalin in order for a zoom cancel to proc. around where you start to climb him is a good place.
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 2:41 AM
Scuffed but this proves that bosses can proc zoom cancel if they have special hitboxes.
randomspadesMar 4, 2021 4:48 AM
Thanks @euphorysm and @Not idle | Lost Prayer(s) u guys helped a lot
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Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMar 5, 2021 7:50 AM
Ticket Opened by @Artesians, MH Rise
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:57 AM
So there's something that I learned that explains literally everything
It makes this a really long read though
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 8:22 AM
For some reason I accidentally disabled the embed on my original post
let me repost this (the post below is the most recently updated writeup)(edited)
Theory/Finding: Zoom in for a 5 star elemental burst and similar elemental bursts will cancel when there is potential clipping due to interference with another object. Many characters have a primary camera that normally tracks them and a secondary camera that manages the zoom in phase of the elemental burst. In order to detect collisions, the secondary camera casts a short ray in the direction of the character. If that ray collides with an object besides the character, it will switch to the primary camera in order to prevent clipping. Programmers can use layers to select what objects to ignore. If the secondary camera is within another object, such as behind a wall, raycasting won't register any collision and will return a null value. In which case, a ray in the opposite direction is cast in order to detect collisions and the camera will switch to the primary camera if collisions are detected. Frames before recovery with Zoom Cancel: Klee: 104, Qiqi 125, Jean 75, Hu Tao 101, Keqing 125, Diluc 138, Barbara 137. Tldr; matches exactly with ult dash cancel frames from Robin's sim. Tested features: Walls, Rock features, Geo Constructs: Wake of Earth, Starfell Sword, Zhongli Pillar, Geo Samachurl pillars, Cryo Samachurl pillar, Geo Hypostasis pillar, Dvalin's neck, crates, Trees!, Standing in shallow water. Tested Characters: Keqing, Barbara, Diluc, Jean, Qiqi, Klee, Hu Tao, Zhongli, Ganyu, Xiao, Venti ,Childe, Albedo, Mona Evidence: Significance: A reliable way to cancel certain 5 star and 4 star zoom ins. Looks very stylish. This allows mobile users to continuously input a dash during the active frames of an ultimate, allowing them to more easily dash cancel. This also disproves the myth that cancelling the zoom in of the elemental burst decreases the duration of the elemental burst, and explains why zoom in cancel happens.(edited)
Keqing and Barbara Elemental Burst Zoom Cancel
Geo MC Zoom Cancel
Wake of Earth Cancels Zoom
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 8:47 AM
Well this explains some weird scenarios
especially the screwy situations with ruin hunters and dvalin
I guess it's time to take a nap. I just found out about raycasting so this might still be pretty wrong.
in case anyone wants to read up on raycasting
This isn't exactly an original theory anymore..... This is pretty much how game designers program, but it explains the zoom canceling much better than I could.(edited)
I still think that this should be more widely known if only for the fact that it allows mobile players to more easily dash cancel elemental bursts.
The ruin hunter example should work like this(edited)
the stuff the ruin hunter shoots are objects that are children of the ruin hunter. Maybe the developer decided to include them as objects that force a collision.
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 8:57 AM
Theory/Finding continued: Why don't mobs work in general? It could be because of their hitbox. The ray that's cast is not a large ray, so having a spherical collider/hitbox that's larger than the mob goes a long way in preventing 90% of collisions. The secondary camera is probably not attached to a rigid body because I've seen clipping through mobs before. In videos, I've seen like 1 zoom cancel off of a mob. It's in the speedrun video, and it probably happens because the dead mitachurl is an object that collides with the secondary camera ray. If you watch carefully you might see the same thing that I see. Clipping can still happen with this process of raycasting because the ray casting process calculates a small window before the camera even moves, leaving some room for error. The other more likely explanation of why mobs don't proc zoom cancels is that most active mobs are ignored in the raycasting process, through a filter but that the developers forgot to include stuff like elements of the mobs that are children such as the dead mobs and missiles like that or don't include it in the filter by design. Zoom cancel in water can't be completely explained by raycasting, but it makes sense to detect if a character is standing in water while doing their elemental burst in order to prevent clipping. Most raycasting programs ignore water because water usually doesn't have a defined hitbox. Detecting if a character is standing in water is much easier than raycasting as well. Standing in water in order to cancel the zoom seems to be a recent development. There seems to be an exception with Mona's ability to zoom cancel in water, because her elemental burst includes water. Does it increase DPS? The answer is that hitlag adjusted frame counts are the same with or without zoom cancel. Mobile players can still use touch controls if they zoom cancel. There is no difference for PC or controller players.(edited)
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Your 5* Elemental Bursts But No Zooming in
5^ Elemental Bursts without Zooming in #genshinimpact #genshin
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 12:49 PM
Also only 5 characters haven't been tested!
It would be great to add them to the list of stuff covered
just-the-right-size mouseMar 5, 2021 2:46 PM
I can't really help for the last few untested characters, sadly. However, I think this entry has enough substance as is, and considering more 5-stars will be introduced anyway, it will be continually updated as the game moves forward. Well done
I can't speak for all editors, but if somehow you can't gather data for the last few untested characters, (i.e. you can't get volunteers HuTaokek ), I would probably just have the ticket closed so that at least it can be reviewed by other editors
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 2:47 PM
Alrighty! Thanks so much for your input!
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 3:17 PM
The example with the ruin hunter isn't consistent at all so I wasn't able to get a video of it, but that still could line up with the theory, because a missile from a ruin hunter could still force a collision from the ray casting.
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 3:50 PM
Just as an update, I found some youtube videos that show that standing in shallow water will cancel the zoom in as well.(edited)
5 Star Charecter Burst Animation no Zoom But Mona Don't want to
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Your 5* Elemental Bursts But No Zooming in
5^ Elemental Bursts without Zooming in #genshinimpact #genshin
Standing in water can't be completely explained by raycasting, but it does make sense to detect if a character is standing in water while doing their elemental burst in order to prevent clipping. That could also be added to the camera script.
This also explains my ruin hunter example so I have to edit it.
In consideration of this stuff, this definitely should be included in the writeup.(edited)
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 4:05 PM
Raycasting Through Terrain - Unity Answers
Unity is the ultimate game development platform. Use Unity to build high-quality 3D and 2D games, deploy them across mobile, desktop, VR/AR, consoles or the Web, and connect with loyal and enthusiastic players and customers.
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMar 5, 2021 4:08 PM
Ticket Closed by @randomspades
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMar 5, 2021 6:13 PM
Ticket Opened by @Charliex3000 | Non whale Charlie
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:17 PM
I'm getting some weird results on Diluc
The zoomed one can E on frame 137, but the unzoomed one can E on frame 142
Or at the very least the E is ungreyed at those frames(edited)
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:32 PM
wait what.....
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:33 PM
yeah, my tests are showing that zoom cancel on diluc lowers DPS
I'm making another example
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:45 PM
you also have a lot more ping than me, but this looks a lot like what you said
Ping doesn't equal a 5 frame difference usually
it looks like only checking dash cancel frames was a mistake
From my test I got 137 frames.... I wonder what that difference comes from
frame count rabbit hole
Could it be from raycasting?
I don't really code but could this explain it
what is the difference between Update & FixedUpdate in Unity?
What is the difference between the Update and FixedUpdate methods, and when should these methods be used?
Basically raycasting will update slower than the framerate
Why do we not always use FixedUpdate? - Unity Answers
Unity is the ultimate game development platform. Use Unity to build high-quality 3D and 2D games, deploy them across mobile, desktop, VR/AR, consoles or the Web, and connect with loyal and enthusiastic players and customers.
well looks like this isn't getting answered soon
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:45 PM
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:46 PM
no way..... frame 139
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:46 PM
well... idk
I'm just looking at when I can e
i didn't spam e at the top speed either
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:51 PM
it definitely is slower
LateUpdate: LateUpdate is called once per frame, after Update has finished. Any calculations that are performed in Update will have completed when LateUpdate begins. A common use for LateUpdate would be a following third-person camera. If you make your character move and turn inside Update, you can perform all camera movement and rotation calculations in LateUpdate. This will ensure that the character has moved completely before the camera tracks its position. (this would only account for 1 frame of lag though probably)(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:51 PM
Actually... what if actionable frame for Diluc ult is affected by hitlag?
Hitting that tree has 6 frames of hitlag
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:51 PM
ohhhhh that makes so much sense
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:52 PM
fuck more testing required
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:52 PM
I did my frame counts for geo construct zoom cancels
because that's what euphorysm sent me
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:54 PM
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 6:56 PM
I could also grab the youtube video of standing in water zoom cancels (welp they're 30 fps)(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 6:58 PM
It's hitlag
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:00 PM
thank god
dodged a bullet there
60 fps
all my homies hate hitlag (this one can't be used for frame counts though because it doesn't show full elemental bursts) big rip.(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:06 PM
The zoom itself doesn't make it any faster though
at least on diluc
since it zooms back in in the middle
oh woops
didn't crop the front half right
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:10 PM
tree has massive hitlag
looks like there's a margin of error of 1 for when they start(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:11 PM
Fuck yeah
I didn't line it up right
lemme redo it
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:15 PM
Mona doesn't cancel when she's in water. (this is probably an exception) Iirc it's more efficient to use real water for her animations rather than fake water. She should be able to cancel on a geo construct. This can be used for framecounting too. It's 60 fps and shows full elemental burst. Xiao 60 Zhongli 120, Jean 75.(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:24 PM
On Diluc the zoom cancel doesn't offer any extra DPS
But also doesn't make it worse
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that the zoom cancel is tied to when the E disappears (but not when it reappears). You can see that the ult animation will consistently start 1 frame before E dissapears.(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:25 PM
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:27 PM
When it turns transparent
so character moves before camera tracking/switching happens(edited)
That's also consistent with what unity recommended which was to have a 1 frame delay
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:27 PM
I'm counting then the Q goes clear
okay I can't tell if there is a 1 frame difference
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:30 PM
Yeah without zoom cancel it's impossible to tell
because the controls dissappear
It doesn't make a difference whether it's zoom cancel or not
camera tracking should update 1 frame after ultimate burst animation sequence starts
in general. Just a lot easier to tell with zoom cancel.(edited)
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 7:30 PM
So in general, no noticable DPS change?
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 7:32 PM
no dps change
It makes dash canceling ultimates more comfy on mobile(edited)
because controls show up
but otherwise no dps change
Thanks for testing this stuff!
Charliex3000 | Non whale CharlieMar 5, 2021 9:06 PM
oh okay
Would you like me to reclose this then?
randomspadesMar 5, 2021 9:06 PM
yeah sure
Thanks a lot
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Faranight | Widsith ShillMar 21, 2021 4:47 PM
Evidence is sufficiently compelling, I like the inclusion of unity raycasting analysis. Another unmentioned advantage of knowing zoom cancel mechanics is to retain situational awareness in combat and better see what the burst actually hit, which applies to PC as well. Moving this to Ready-for-publishing @randomspades , enjoy your role!
!role add @randomspades Wangsheng Theorycrafter
Keqing's Eternal AssistantBOTMar 21, 2021 4:47 PM
Added Wangsheng Theorycrafter to randomspades#0956.
Neptunya, the one true NepApr 15, 2021 7:46 AM
JonahFarc | Git ArchonApr 18, 2021 9:36 PM
PR up
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