Server: KQM | Genshin Impact (763583452762734592) Channel: swirl-guide (834419900104835122) Messages: 200 Ayzel | ticketpocalypse#7399 (276182497145126912) gimmeabreak#2712 (156096226721398786) Faranight | too deep in swirl#0001 (66819579678031872) Terrapin#8603 (81165492328333312) pikachusurprised | Noelle main#6934 (111978131664928768) Hail | Ayaka Waiting Room#2970 (256807114075275265) Yuehai Ticketing Secretary#4843 (557628352828014614) Midori | MAID#2173 (53485948939276288) KQM | Genshin Impact - swirl-guide
KQM | Genshin Impact
swirl-guide
200 messages
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 21, 2021 7:06 PM
there we go
2U Cryo - 1U Hydro - 1U Anemo resulting in cryo swirl
gimmeabreakApr 21, 2021 7:14 PM
there's no additional aura so this is within expectations right?
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 21, 2021 7:14 PM
yeah
gimmeabreakApr 21, 2021 7:15 PM
getting there... the stupid refreezing throws a wrench into things >.>
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 12:15 AM
Surprised nobody pinged me for this. EC swirl has the same weird behavior if not weirder. I think we need a separate ticket investigating the interaction with co-op tests at this point. The swirl guide should say that swirling EC can proc double VV on single target, same for frozen+hydro. The consistency is just not understood yet.
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 12:29 AM
I think we were too busy being confused lmao
I think we have a pretty good theory of how frozen+hydro swirls work tho
I’ll prob make a second ticket for it at some point once I get more footage for evidence
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 12:40 AM
Hmm I thought EC Swirl was just down to Swirl timings
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 12:49 AM
you can play with it some yourself, it's jank af
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:03 AM
what's wrong with EC swirls?
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:04 AM
seems like the exact same issues
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:04 AM
I tried it out a bit (Jean/Sucrose/Lisa/Mona) and pulled off double swirls consistently
might be gauges, let me change out characters
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:05 AM
here's one such instance
Faranight 0001
VV on EC 1x Swirl
but it is messy
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:07 AM
I think what's happening here is that the electro aura is the stronger of the two EC auras, and even though Jean's anemo attack is 2U it can't fully remove a 4U beidou burst electro app, so it doesn't swirl the other hydro aura(edited)
if it was a different character who applied less units of electro aura, then double swirl should occur
same logic with freeze
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:08 AM
it's a good theory, but it goes to show that it may have the same behavior as freeze in this regard
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:08 AM
yeah it's kinda weird
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:08 AM
so it shouldn't be omitted from study
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:08 AM
honestly I'll prob write a ticket for this lol
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:08 AM
(also easier to get higher electro gauges than hydro, so nice to test)
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 1:09 AM
Swirl EC/Freeze consistency?
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:09 AM
I guess so
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:27 AM
maybe semantic but i really think it's "is there enough anemo gauge left after reacting with the first element (whichever it may be) to react again"
i did a whole bunch more tests some i didnt post but i think that's a more accurate way to describe it?
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:29 AM
Yeah that's true
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:30 AM
wtf this vid makes no sense D: 2U should have been enough to react with a 2U electro + 1U hydro EC
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:32 AM
yeah there is like a ton going on though
cause you have 4U, 2U, 1U electro applications and multiple 1U hydro
in varying orders
so hard to discern a ton from it
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:34 AM
so what i can tell should happened is, beidou E 2u -> beidou q 4u -> jean auto = beidou q proc + xingqiu sword touching + xingqiu sword proc
then finally jean E
but all of those based on current theory should have kept it at 2u + 1u ec reaction still
so regardless the overall gauge of any of either electro or hydro should exceed 2u
in fact electro should be less than 2U b/c ec first tick usually happens right away reducing gauge by .4
so 2U anemo should be more than enough... so ya.. wtf
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:37 AM
Doesn’t anemo only have .5 effectiveness tho
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 22, 2021 1:37 AM
true
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:38 AM
hmm anemo reduces the other one by factor of .5 but reduces itself by the full amount
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:39 AM
Right, so in order for a double swirl to occur with a 2U anemo, either electro or hydro aura must be less than 1U
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:39 AM
well, no in theory a depleted 2U should work too
i think i have an example of that somewhere let me find it
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:39 AM
Wdym by depleted 2U
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:41 AM
there's actually ~31 units of water left when 50 units of anemo was applied
1U is 25 in game
i think as long as the first reaction does not consume all of the anemo, it should in theory react again
so if anemo is 50 (2U) then as long as the hydro remaining is slightly less than 2U in theory that should work?
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:42 AM
Right
But what I think happens in the EC case is that it’s not trying to deplete hydro
It’s trying to deplete electro
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:43 AM
well, hydro or cryo
er, electro
either or, im just saying hydro cause the one i linked was hydro
but same idea
one possibility i had thought about though is that we dont fully understand what happens when hydro/electro is reapplied to an existing EC reaction(edited)
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:43 AM
Yeah I’m saying the reason Faranight didn’t get a double swirl was because anemo was depleting electro instead of hydro
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:44 AM
well, it shouldnt matter i think b/c in that video, the highest electro applicaiton was 2U
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:44 AM
Beidou ult is 4U
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:45 AM
no, he had applied electro using beidou E before Q
so the total units should not exceed 2
here's the frame right on Q cast
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:46 AM
Hmm
I think we can test this by just not using burst
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:46 AM
so if u consider the fact that every time ec triggers, the units is immediately reduced by .4, there should have been less than 2 units left by the time jean hit
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:46 AM
So Beidou E - Xingqiu Q - Jean normal - Jean E
And see if a double swirl occurs then
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:47 AM
UNLESS the Q passive somehow recharged electro back to 50 units right before jean E
it's possible as we don't fully understand EC and what happens when u reapply
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:47 AM
Right
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:47 AM
that should work, or just beidou E, xingqiu E (on empty air), walk up and jean E should work too
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:47 AM
It could possibly be that it recaps to the new electro gauge strength when you reapply
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:48 AM
the E contacting should trigger EC
ya.. except that's also inconsistent with what i had tested before..
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:48 AM
Rip
Never mind then
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:51 AM
EC (the first tick) doesnt seem to have any ICD scratch that just rewatching the vid looks like EC only ticked once before swirl went off(edited)
so it's possible that beidou Q passive recharged..
i think could test as follows: beidou E -> xingqiu/barb E -> walk up + sucrose auto => should be electro swirl only beidou E -> xingqiu/barb E -> walk up + jean/venti E => should be both
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:51 AM
I’ll do this in about 15 minutes
Unless you want to test first
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:52 AM
i cant tonight pc off already. gotta hit my goal of 2 char added to my sim per day haha
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:53 AM
Ok I’ll test soon then
Wait how can there be 31 units of hydro left if you applied a 1U hydro attack
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:53 AM
oh that particular log? that was from a swirled 2U hydro
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:53 AM
Or is that hydro from the 2U used to freeze
Oh ok
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:55 AM
wait no sorry, ill have to check i dont remember
but that was a different scenario
actually ya just read my notes again.. wtf how did that happen
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:56 AM
Maybe you got scenario wrong?
Or is the 31 units anemo and the 15 hydro
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:56 AM
hmm, could be... dont fully understand the 50% mechanic
it could be 15 units of hydro, but costs 31 unit of anemo to remove
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 1:57 AM
Yeah I think that seems likely
If you applied 1U hydro then swirled with anemo then 15 is about right considering aura decay
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 1:59 AM
ya.. would have to count frames to find out
dreading doing that actually.. i done too many frame counts recently
Sadge1
tbh i think we can gain a much better understanding of the whole freeze business if i just sat down and frame counted some of the test we did today... but ugh
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 2:35 AM
here's vid of the first one, electro swirl only as you theorized
and here's the second with jean, double swirl as theorized
gimmeabreakApr 22, 2021 3:14 AM
still no evidence on if it's "order of operation" or "strongest gauge first" though, unfortunately
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 6:55 AM
yea frame counts with EC are a huge pain lol
aren't these two tests different in regard to EC though? Xingqiu's blade aura is used in the first, but his Q swords are used in the second
I'll have to make more consistent tests to say for sure
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 7:03 AM
hmm same result for me
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 22, 2021 7:37 AM
same aura
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 7:37 AM
yeah
TerrapinApr 22, 2021 8:00 AM
Hmm for the guide I would like to keep it as general and easy to understand as possible with just simple descriptions and pictures, but link to the more complex interactions
General use for Freeze Swirl is mainly absorption Q on Venti/Sucrose/Anemo MC
So I think I'll test for those conditions and then have a caveats link to a more in depth explanation of gauge
Sucrose normal attacks are also used in perma freeze
I suppose Jean Q is also useable
pikachusurprised | Noelle mainApr 22, 2021 3:14 PM
@Hail | Ayaka Waiting Room
Hail | Ayaka Waiting RoomApr 22, 2021 3:15 PM
WAAA
pikachusurprised | Noelle mainApr 22, 2021 3:15 PM
can i bother you to check this guide later? its in pins
sorry for the ping, figured youd be the right person
Hail | Ayaka Waiting RoomApr 22, 2021 3:18 PM
I can't seem to open the link
Not sure what that's about
will try later on though or tomorrow
I'm sort of in between stuff atm so I'd rather give it more attention when possible
pikachusurprised | Noelle mainApr 22, 2021 3:26 PM
yeah ofc, dont worry about it
TerrapinApr 24, 2021 1:30 AM
Gonna work on updating the Freeze section, and leave a space for linking to what comes of the work in #how-to-get-double-swirls
TerrapinApr 24, 2021 1:45 AM
So hmm, for Venti permafreeze users that are infusing Hydro in his Q ( 1u application ) and attacking with Cryo ( Ganyu/Mona ), it looks like Venti will want to use his E for 2u application to shred Cryo. Likewise for anyone infusing Cryo and attacking with Hydro.
TerrapinApr 24, 2021 1:58 AM
actually that appears to not work either
ah this is because Ganyu's application is all 1u
welp
TerrapinApr 24, 2021 4:43 AM
Edit: Modified Freeze section to be more accurate with current findings, added in 4pc Viridescent Venerer set section(edited)
The guide should be complete for its current scope now, unless anyone else has any input.
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 25, 2021 3:18 AM
Ticket Closed by @Terrapin
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Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 25, 2021 6:32 PM
I think that you should also add in to the EC section that not all EC swirls will cause a double swirl, because the way you have it worded right now implies that swirling EC always creates a double swirl of electro and hydro, which we know not to be the case.
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 25, 2021 6:32 PM
Ticket Opened by @Ayzel | ticketpocalypse
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 25, 2021 10:08 PM
@Terrapin will ping for visibility(edited)
TerrapinApr 25, 2021 11:08 PM
Added a note.
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 26, 2021 4:12 AM
Ticket Closed by @Terrapin
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 4:59 AM
would also add that Sucrose can cause double swirls against frozen targets.
Faranight 0001
1U Anemo 2x Swirl on Frozen
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 26, 2021 4:59 AM
Ticket Opened by @Ayzel | ticketpocalypse
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 5:08 AM
Other stuff that should be made clearer:
1] why is EC the best chain reaction to use for consistent damage? 2] What does it mean for "Melt and Vaporize to multiply off of Swirl's base damage?"
There's some other grammar stuff that I can fix when transferring over to the library.
Other than that, do you have evidence that chain reactions are based off the anemo character's EM?
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:15 AM
I didn't want to include Sucrose causing double Swirls on Frozen targets because it's not something anyone could do practically, and this is a guide for general use
With a Q going with absorbed Hydro and Cryo applied to enemies Jean/Venti/Xiao could double Swirl in practical use though
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 5:15 AM
I think it should still be mentioned, even if it's impractical; something like "While setting up double swirls on frozen targets with Sucrose is extremely difficult, it has been done in testing. However, this is infeasible" or something like that.
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:15 AM
I intended to link to that later yeah
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 5:16 AM
sounds good
also, can you upload the images in your doc to imgur so that it can be published?
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:19 AM
Electro-charged is the best chain reaction for consistent damage because it can be sustained, and will generally allow for double Swirls and EC chains. The other reactions from Swirl - Melt/Vaporise/Overload can't be sustained as chain reactions from Swirl unless an enemy has a permanent aura. Freeze can be sustained, but you can't consistently double Swirl and Freeze does no damage.
I did note the one situation where Overload can be sustained in 12-1-1 with the infused Geovishaps, with a video showcasing that.
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 5:20 AM
that makes sense; I'd add that in the guide so that you have a warrant for the claim you're making.
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:21 AM
Well, it is mentioned in the Melt/Vaporise section, and in the Freeze section though.
Just not all together in the EC section.
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 5:22 AM
I would still prefer your proof for why EC is the best reaction to be in the EC section
readers shouldn't have to scroll through to other sections to find evidence for your argument in one section
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:27 AM
Here you can see that Sucrose Swirls Electro into an enemy with a Hydro aura, causing an Electro-charged reaction that ticks for 5875 based off of her character level and EM.
Ok, I can add that
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 5:45 AM
the heck lol
https://imgur.com/a/Ah6JKY4
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 26, 2021 12:18 PM
Reactions caused by swirl are not fully understood yet, and technically we do not have official evidence in the TCL that amp reactions caused by swirl scale based on the swirl number, however that is the case based on wiki and my own testing. Would be nice to have a ticket showing such and resolving the inconsistencies around them, but I think it's general knowledge/confirmed enough that it poses no problems being in the guide.
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 12:57 PM
Oh is there work that needs to be done on Swirl chain reactions? I can take that on in another ticket then.
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 26, 2021 1:37 PM
Not anything that's practical enough to be in the context of the guide imo, but I'd like to have evidence in our TCL of amp reaction scaling eventually. I've collected evidence myself but probably won't get around to submitting it for a long time. Furthermore the exact nature of some of the scaling isn't stated anywhere. For instance it is the swirl damage on the target effected by the amping reaction that is multiplied, not on the primary target. Thus forward vaporize reactions will not do any damage when caused by swirls as the hydro dispersion does no damage. Also I haven't tested how crit works with them, wiki says they can crit but I'd like to see one myself. As I said though those details are in my opinion not relevant enough to be in the scope of this guide. Once Ayzel confirmed the changes he requested are in we can close it again.
TerrapinApr 26, 2021 1:47 PM
Yeah Hydro Swirl just spreads Wet, so same effect as nudging an enemy with a Pyro aura with Xingqiu's sword aura. I'm surprised the wiki says they can crit, that definitely isn't possible.
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 26, 2021 1:49 PM
yeah i thought so too
(this is why we don't blindly accept wiki things in TCL related content sucrose_smort )
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 26, 2021 6:24 PM
Ticket Closed by @Terrapin
Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 26, 2021 8:13 PM
This is because although Freeze involves Cryo and Hydro, both cannot be consistently Swirled at the same time like with Electro-charged ( Only Jean/Venti’s E, Jean’s Q damage and Xiao’s E press can double Swirl, and only under specific circumstances ).
This is still technically not true as you can double swirl with 1U sources, it's just even harder. May be better to instead generalize the disclaimers to "consistently double swirling freeze is not usually feasible due to requiring very specific circumstance". Or we can simply update it once the other ticket goes through.
Notably Swirl is extremely useful on Abyss 12-1-1, where once the enemies are infused with Pyro and Electro they can be constantly Swirled into each other to spam Overload.
May want to be weary of references to current abyss as it's about to change and generally a pain to update. If you do have it maybe a quick parenthetical to date the abyss (though you do have a link showing the current abyss there it is hosted on streamable so that too will expire eventually). Everything else looks good to me. @Ayzel | ticketpocalypse were your concerns fixed?
(edited)
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 26, 2021 8:20 PM
Ticket Opened by @Ayzel | ticketpocalypse
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 26, 2021 8:23 PM
I still think that you should make it more clear why EC is the best
like just paste in your explanation from above
"Electro-charged is the best chain reaction for consistent damage because it can be sustained, and will generally allow for double Swirls and EC chains. The other reactions from Swirl - Melt/Vaporise/Overload can't be sustained as chain reactions from Swirl unless an enemy has a permanent aura."
just throw this in or something
@Terrapin pinging for visibility
Once you've made this change and made the changes that Faranight has suggested, I think we can move this to publishing
TerrapinApr 27, 2021 1:47 AM
Huh, I thought I had changed this already. Something messed up somewhere.
TerrapinApr 27, 2021 3:21 AM
I did add this in before yeah
TerrapinApr 27, 2021 3:41 AM
Okay, fixed these up with a timestamp on the abyss video and a link to youtube with a reference to the general mechanic. Also edited the Freeze section.
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTApr 27, 2021 9:19 AM
Ticket Closed by @Terrapin
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Faranight | too deep in swirlApr 27, 2021 3:41 PM
Approved.
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 27, 2021 4:02 PM
will check over and give second approval if I see nothing wrong soon
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseApr 28, 2021 12:34 AM
approved, moving to publishing
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseMay 1, 2021 12:13 AM
@Midori | MAID are you working on this one
Midori | MAIDMay 1, 2021 12:13 AM
nope
Ayzel | ticketpocalypseMay 1, 2021 12:13 AM
ok
ill do it then
Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMay 1, 2021 12:16 AM
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