KQM | Genshin Impact - abyss-lector-shield-pyro-vs-cryo

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 8:40 AM

The problem might be due to overload base damage being much higher. For cryo the difference in weapons is massive since superconduct damage is so low in comparison. For pyro the difference in weapons is not that big since overload, especaiily with XL's native EM stat, is kinda big. I think we have to actually calculate damage differences.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 8:43 AM

well neither superconduct nor overload depends on weapon for damage, only EM and level

so if that's the case we would just see the same small difference for cryo as well

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:25 PM

https://streamable.com/uq9gqi Bennett with level 1 weapon(edited)

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https://streamable.com/8mjfdu Bennett with level 90 aquila

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both attempts too exactly 17 hits + a sliver left

So i don't think that pyro is affected by damage

A difference between level 1 weapon and level 90 weapon damage is huge so we definitely would see something here if that was the case

And actually that matches up with ~ the 36U that we saw the other day with the ganyu with level 1 weapon

so it might be the case that both pyro and cryo do the same base damage to shields but cryo scales with damage

@Ayzel @Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUG

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:26 PM

Could you please post exact stats and talent lvls, preferably for all your clips?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:30 PM

level 1 weapon

level 90 weapon

ganyu's stats

I would have surely seen a noticeable difference if damage mattered for Bennett level 1 weapon vs level 90(edited)

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:30 PM

Pyro/Cryo damage goblets?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:31 PM

ganyu has a cryo one, bennett has some random one

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:33 PM

That's my Ganyu with no cryo goblet.

Ok I'll do some calcs later today unless you want to.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:35 PM

I mean do we need to? I'm sure that if damage mattered we would have seem some perceivable difference with by Bennett clips but there actually is none

you can cross check me but i see like no difference at all

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:39 PM

If it wasnt Ganyu with Amos bow and lvl 10 talent I'd be with you.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:40 PM

ganyu isn't a factor in this though(edited)

it's just Bennett and pyro shield breaking

we already determined cryo is somehow scaling with damage

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:40 PM

Pyro being immune to damage is too bizarre, making sure wouldn't hurt.(edited)

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:41 PM

Yeah that's why i tried again one more time with bennett with lvl 1 and level 90 weapon

it's weird

but there's no difference

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 5:47 PM

What artifact sets you were using?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 5:47 PM

noblesse on bennett

blizzard strayer on ganyu

capri sun specialeMay 2, 2021 6:04 PM

Have you tested if the difference in gear is due to just EM difference? The level 1 and 90 bennet here has the same EM

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:10 PM

im just scrolling through this, so ganyu w more dmg is somehow breaking shield faster? am i understanding this correctly?

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 6:14 PM

Yes.

It might be worth testing but Ganyu's case certainly not due to EM difference.

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:15 PM

and the evidence for that is it took 18 charged shots lvl 1 bow but 30 no bloom shots amos bow?

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 6:16 PM

Yes.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 6:17 PM

yeah seems like cryo and pyro both do the same amount of damage to shield with level 1 weapons

for some reason cryo gets boosted by damage though

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:21 PM

why would it do that though.. what kind of spaghetti code is this shield coded with

so lvl 1 frost arrow only took 36 shots as well?(edited)

YukarixMay 2, 2021 6:24 PM

it took me 14 bloom shots with level 90 bow vs 18 with level 1 bow

if you could help out, we need to probably test it with another cryo char as well

cause maybe it's just ganyu? idk

i don't really have another cryo character leveled up

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:26 PM

me neither... ill probably die before i can dodge that long too

just trying to think why it would be so different

YukarixMay 2, 2021 6:27 PM

beats me

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:28 PM

i thought maybe there's something funky going on with blooms but if lvl 1 took 18 that cant be it either

YukarixMay 2, 2021 6:29 PM

there is also something funky going on with blooms b/c it takes 30 shots w/o bloom but only 14 charged shots w/ bloom

and it probably has to do with damage

as well

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 6:29 PM

did it take 30 shots w/ lvl 1 weapon as well no bloom though?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 6:29 PM

don't have a vid for that

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:00 PM

In Bennet clips the damage difference is 47k vs 66k In Ganyu clips the damage difference is 38k vs 335k (clip of lvl 1 charged shots only) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WctyYPk5tMSDS7MSwriaChyDu6_r4p9tvBCxx3sDGjI/edit?usp=sharing(edited)

Abyss lector shield calcs

Ganyu 1 Ganyu clip only lvl 1 charge shots,https://streamable.com/maip1o,29 + sliver Total atk,Crit chance,Crit damage,DMG%,DEF multiplier,RES mulitpler,EM bonus,SC damage 2285,49,10%,262,50%,213,60%,0,4871794872,0,9,16,20%,698,362 talent dmg%,non-cri...

The average damages might be slightly off due to Ganyu's crit passive being dynamic.

So according to Bennet clips, 2GU of shield is more than 19k. For Ganyus, the difference is 297k damage and 6GU. So 2GU is around 100k damage.

Well not exactly like that, I didn't take into account the last sliver of damage, but the order is pretty much correct.

So it seems that adding lvl 90 weapon to Bennet wasn't enough to take more than 2GU of shield which is why the number of Es remained the same.(edited)

YukarixMay 2, 2021 7:15 PM

That doesn't explain though why it took my ganyu with a level 1 weapon 16 shots + a sliver

https://streamable.com/w1g4kt

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Our level 1 ganyu's should be closer in power than a bennett with a level 1 weapon vs level 90 weapon

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:16 PM

Can you give me stats for this?

Well your Ganyu os C6 right? C1 might be a big difference.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 7:17 PM

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:24 PM

218k assuming 100% uptime on C1's -15% cryo res.

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:38 PM

Yeah something is off, not sure what exactly.

Might be due to your tendency to always go for a headshot lol.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 7:45 PM

Well

i gave my bennett absolutely cracked artifacts and he's still taking 17 + a sliver

So, I think either ganyu herself can scale her shield damage or cryo has shield damage scaling

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:49 PM

140k average damage with no set bonus.

YukarixMay 2, 2021 7:49 PM

https://streamable.com/6aomgj this is bennett with very cracked artifacts

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and a pyro goblet

Bobrokrot | Don't invest in ₼BUGMay 2, 2021 7:53 PM

I'll do some more tests with Kaeya tomorrow. The discrepancy might be due to your Ganyu's cracked crit damage stat and you hitting headshots. Maybe blooms also headshot, have to see it on non-shielded lectors.(edited)

YukarixMay 2, 2021 7:54 PM

yeah so it has to be either ganyu can somehow deal more damage with her cryo on lector shields, or cryo itself has damage scaling

we need another cryo unit

cause i cracked bennett's stats out as well and nothing happened

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:33 PM

uh... what render setting do i set to make a 3min video smaller? it's 800mb =/

what's a good bit rate?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:34 PM

hmm i don't know

i usually just trim it and upload straight to streamable

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:40 PM

hmm how do you trim?

https://streamable.com/u2ny29

very unscientific.. wait for someone else that's better at the game for better footage

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:43 PM

oh she's level 60 huh

you're 10 charge shots in and not even 25% of the shield is gone

yeah i think level does matter to an extent

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:48 PM

total 37 shots, 33 shots from diona

the last shot bloomed but i think he died before bloom?

uh, it's 38 as expected no?

18*2 = 36 give or take

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:50 PM

i'd say 34-38 would make sense

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:50 PM

hmm, wasnt there a shield in game that can slowly be whittled down by white attacks?

was that the fatui or abyss mage?

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:51 PM

abyss mage

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:51 PM

maybe that's what it is?

damage contributes a small portion of shield damage

rest is gauges

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:51 PM

i think phys is another damage type

don't think it relates to this

gimmeabreakMay 2, 2021 11:52 PM

it's not a reaction

u can see that on abyss mage as well, it doesnt deplete the elemental durability

tbh i'm happy with the conclusion that it's roughly 38 units

and maybe if you do whale lvl dmg it's 34

YukarixMay 2, 2021 11:54 PM

i think it is around 34-36U somewhere in there

i'm pretty sure level matters so that's why you got 38 with diona mostly

but we still need to figure out why damage was only affecting cryo/ganyu

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:01 AM

maybe she just does too much

honestly no matter how cracked your bennett is he's not doing close to 40k dps just spamming E

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:02 AM

that's what i thought, but even removing artifacts and making bennett's weapon level 1 and comparing it to a level 90 weapon with cracked artifacts there still is no difference

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:05 AM

it could be there was a diff but u cant tell b/c you can tell how much the last e consumed in term of shield strength

here just tried it my xiangling has something like 70% crit 140cd running skyward pride, just auto attack does 2k dps

let's say your bennett is doing 4k dps

vs 40..

im just speculating btw lol

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:08 AM

i have no idea. if bennett gaining 1.7k attack, 50 cr, and 90 cd doesn't boost his shield breaking strength then i dont know how else to try

that's compared to my ganyu only gaining ~ 900 attack between her 2 comparisons and nothing else

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:08 AM

well, im just speculating that maybe the damage portion that reduce the gauge could be so low that only ganyu does enough damage purely on one ability to make a noticeable dent?

one way to tell is maybe strip ganyu of all artifact and weapon and try

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:16 AM

you wanna test with your ganyu?(edited)

(with weapon)

i want to see if you get roughly the same results as me with a level 90 weapon

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:31 AM

15.5 bloom shots

one shot i hit the other guy and bloom landed instead

lvl 80 amos, dealing roughly 20k + 30k on crit

vid is almost 1gb.. damn obs

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:32 AM

yeah so something is definitely scaling her damage

if it wasn't you would take 17-18 charged shots

but like me, you took less with a leveled weapon

i had a level 90 amos

and took 14

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:41 AM

well not many other char does 50k per hit though, maybe xingqiu but he cant exactly spam E

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:43 AM

i mean then game is literally coded so if you don't reach a threshold of damage you can't deal more shield damage in an attack

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:44 AM

wouldnt be surprised

makes sense i think if u think of it as, please spend more money so you can faceroll this game

imagine you're actually mechanically bad but throw in tons of money but still cant beat it...

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:50 AM

do you think crit damage affects it?

no right...? you can't crit a shield right

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:50 AM

i cant imagine it being that complicated

then again maybe the guy that wrote this code got bored while doing it

and decided to spice things up

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:52 AM

ok i don't really understand what's going on then

i just tested my ganyu level 1 weapon setup vs bennett with cracked artifact setup

and bennett deals more non crit damage

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:53 AM

O_O

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:53 AM

with ganyu (level 1 weapon) i got 16 + 1 sliver of shield left, with bennett it's always 17 + 1 sliver of shield left(edited)

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 12:53 AM

uhm.. i just got amos bow... let's just stopped right here before you find anything you're not suppose to

YukarixMay 3, 2021 12:55 AM

YukarixMay 3, 2021 1:12 AM

@gimmeabreak can we just...test another cryo unit

#cryo-vs-electro-against-hydro-shield they also found something similar there where ganyu was doing more damage to shields than she should

so maybe it's just her..

gimmeabreakMay 3, 2021 1:15 AM

i'm just gonna wait for someone better at playing the game to do it

>.>

AyzelMay 3, 2021 1:35 AM

ganyu just built different

Mono$INVEST₼C6KAEYAWAITINGROOMMay 3, 2021 1:35 AM

!role add @Yukarix Wangsheng Theorycrafter

Keqing's Eternal AssistantBOTMay 3, 2021 1:35 AM

Added Wangsheng Theorycrafter to Yukarix#6534.

Mono$INVEST₼C6KAEYAWAITINGROOMMay 3, 2021 1:36 AM

need in #unreleased-tc

basically a whale anyways

AyzelMay 3, 2021 1:36 AM

lmao

c6 ganyu

def not a whale

YukarixMay 3, 2021 2:12 AM

Finding: Pyro and cryo appear to be equally effective in terms of efficiency at depleting the shield of an Abyss Lector. This finding does not account for whether there are more pyro or cryo units that have the ability to apply their respective elements at a fast rate. It only accounts for the fact that 1GU of cryo deals the same damage to the Abyss Lector as 1GU of pyro. Damage deal (artifact/weapon quality) does not seem to matter with an exception of Ganyu. For Ganyu, it seems like with no artifacts & level 1 weapon, she takes the same amount of hits as Bennett, but starts to take less hits with a leveled weapon and artifacts. Units used to test pyro were Bennett & Xiangling. Units used to test cryo were Kaeya & Ganyu & Rosaria. Significance: If you have pyro or cryo units that have fast elemental application, using one over another will not matter. Both should produce the same results given the same speed of elemental application. Evidence: https://youtu.be/OGZjtKcRIJg Bennett with level 1 weapon taking 17 hits with sliver of shield health remaining removed by 18th hit https://youtu.be/qkWolamA3wQ Bennett with level 90 aquila taking 17 hits with sliver of shield health remaining removed by 18th hit https://youtu.be/UgkRoeB20XY Bennett with level 90 aquila and high quality artifacts still taking 17 hits with sliver of shield health remaining removed by 18th hit https://youtu.be/jZvvOUV2IM8 Ganyu lvl 1 weapon vs abyss lector taking 17 charged shot w/ blooms + last sliver removed by 18th hit https://youtu.be/EndJEp6jQgg Ganyu level 1 weapon and very good artifacts taking 16 charged shot w/ bloom + last sliver removed by 17th hit https://youtu.be/ou_saE7gpBM Ganyu level 90 weapon and very good artifacts taking 13 charged shot w/ bloom + last sliver removed by 14th hit(edited)

yukarix

2021 05 02 12 51 40 Trim

yukarix

2021 05 02 12 51 40 Trim 2

yukarix

2021 05 02 15 23 45 Trim

Bobrokrot

Ganyu lvl 1 weapon vs abyss lector (electro) 18 charged shots + blooms

yukarix

2021 05 02 15 04 08 Trim

Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMay 3, 2021 2:12 AM

Ticket Closed by @Yukarix

Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTMay 3, 2021 8:15 AM

Ticket Opened by @Neptunya

NeptunyaMay 3, 2021 8:16 AM

@Yukarix could you please upload your videos to youtube or imgur, as streamable deletes videos after a few months

VenaticMay 3, 2021 12:57 PM

Hey, just wondering could the reason why Ganyu breaks shield faster be because she deals a massive chunk of damage? Wiki says that damage does break herald shields, and i kinda tried it by bow-autoing down the shield of herald

The amount that the shield decreases by is rly rly small tho

YukarixMay 3, 2021 5:50 PM

Sure after I get off work tonight. Is imgur free for uploading large size videos?

NeptunyaMay 3, 2021 5:50 PM

i think imgur has a video limit of 1 minute

youtube might be best for hosting your clips

YukarixMay 3, 2021 5:52 PM

That was a thought we had too but I compared the damage Ganyu was doing to enemies with a level 1 weapon and good artifacts to Bennett's damage with level 90 weapon and cracked artifacts. Bennett was doing more damage with his E than Ganyu did with bloom yet she still took less charge shots. (17 charged shots total vs 18 Bennett skills total). Something weird is just happening with her scaling her own damage we believe.(edited)