KQM | Genshin Impact - transformative-damage-on-shields

Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTJun 12, 2021 4:14 AM

@shield theory masochist - transformative damage on shields As an author, It is your responsibility to complete the ticket - Take advice constructively - NO disrespectful behavior - The ticket will be scrapped if: No activity > 1 week or open for > 1 mo. - When done, type $close

Theory/Finding/Bug: Title of your submission Evidence: Explanations with calculations and/or Youtube/Imgur proofs Significance: Conclusion

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 4:18 AM

Theory: EM on transformatives may contribute to damage toward shields Evidence: TBF

@Aluminum | Harbinger of Jank if you're interested in continuing this

My artis are kinda scuffed but I'll see what I can do

Aluminum | Harbinger of JankJun 12, 2021 4:18 AM

yeah I should be able to make some high EM sets just tell me what I should be testing

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 4:22 AM

seeing how lisa with varying EM levels destroys hydro abyss mage shields

I can do some with my low level one in floor 2, it should vary between 15 and 14 hits with electro aura at the end or no electro aura at the end from my previous tests

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 4:44 AM

https://youtu.be/gfd6pj73y4Y

KuroXide

Lisa 154 atk 0 EM 1/1/1

second one processing

https://youtu.be/JTzQ8NVXic8

KuroXide

Lisa 278 atk 458 EM 1/1/1

I'm unsure of whether it's the atk difference that made it so severely different, I'll redo with a higher atk number on 0EM to match(edited)

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:00 AM

https://youtu.be/TXINTtjwchM

KuroXide

Lisa 281 atk 0 EM 1/1/1 (1)

https://youtu.be/hDjKFkb1Lzo

KuroXide

Lisa 281 atk 0 EM 1/1/1 (2)

weird fluctuation in damage between these 2 even though they're the same stats

I wrote about damage against shields being able to crit in my document, but I guess this somewhat supports that

Aluminum | Harbinger of JankJun 12, 2021 5:05 AM

would using my lvl 90 widsith be a good idea here? or is it too much regular dmg(edited)

unfortunately I've invested all my electros at least a little

could also use sac frags

or at that point just lvl 1 weapon

oh wait I have a lvl 1 widsith

nice

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:09 AM

I think as long as you keep the atk consistent between both builds anything else goes

keep your crit rate as low as possible, preferably

Aluminum | Harbinger of JankJun 12, 2021 5:09 AM

yeah that makes sense

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:10 AM

~~or just go 100% crit rate with both builds so there's no chance factor at all~~ (edited)

Aluminum | Harbinger of JankJun 12, 2021 5:11 AM

I can also just use the same build with and without widsith buff, as in start lisa on field

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:12 AM

and just reroll for the EM buff?

Aluminum | Harbinger of JankJun 12, 2021 5:13 AM

yeah

might not be too great though due to duration

may just be something I do for fun with max EM stack

KimaenJun 12, 2021 1:46 PM

Lisa with 0 em broke pyro shield with 12 Overload reactions:(edited)

Same 12 reactions with 640 EM

bit later will edit and upload test on hydro mage near Yaoguang shoal, but result pretty same, 15 electro-charged reactions on 0 EM, 14 electro-charged reactions with 640 and 822 EM(edited)

116 atk with 0 EM build, 207 with 640 EM build, frostbear fruit both 542 atk with 822 EM build (sacrificial fragment) - same 14 EC reactions as 640 EM build

so in conclusion - i dont think what atk or em increase damage on shields

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:13 PM

Compare my 458 EM video with my 0 EM video with similar atk, quite a severe difference

You're seeing no difference because it's a level 20 against a level 87 abyss mage - their shield health pools are much larger

We know for a fact atk increases damage on shields, because character damage is taken into effect

I'll go into floor 2 tomorrow with my level 70 razor and see if the base damage of EC matters compared to lisa (level 40), then I'll increase his EM if base damage is shown to affect shield damage(edited)

~~in hindsight I should have started testing on pyro mages to begin with, overload is much easier to track than EC~~

Thanks for the contribution though, it definitely clears up whether EM affects the guaranteed percentage damage of reactions or not; that's one thing to rule off

KimaenJun 12, 2021 5:24 PM

hm, ill try to lvl her up to 60 to see if this have diffirence, and atk artifacts as well

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:27 PM

I don't think atk artifacts are necessary at the moment unless you want to test whether atk affects reaction damage, which would be extremely difficult considering it also affects the damage of lisa's basic attacks

We already know damage matters in terms of character talents

KimaenJun 12, 2021 5:32 PM

to be honest, i thought abyss mages and lectors\heralds shields are have exact number of reaction units, and so they broke as soon as you apply certain amount of reactions. and therefore nor lvl, nor attack, nor talent lvl should not increase their reduction.

is this outdated info?

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:35 PM

That's outdated yes

They have reaction units but character damage also contributes

They effectively have "GU health" and "HP health"

Which both make up one shield health bar

Let me find the page on that in kqm website real quick

https://library.keqingmains.com/mechanics/enemies/enemy-shields-armor

Enemy Shields and Armor

An explanation as to how different type of Enemy Shields and Armor function as well as the most efficient way to deal with them.

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:37 PM

This'll help out here

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:40 PM

Not 100% on the damage cost portion unfortunately, since I've heard from others that their HP health is effectively 4x their base health

It's what I got from the wiki though

KimaenJun 12, 2021 5:41 PM

wow, thank you very much. genshin is surely never fails to surprise

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:41 PM

Is this for domains or such?

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:42 PM

I got it off tony to's video for abyss 12, apparently lector shields have 4x base hp

Hu tao mains pinned it too iirc

I'm not sure if they tested it themselves but it was a big thing for a week or so

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:43 PM

So shields have 4x the hp of the enemy who casts it?

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:43 PM

That's what I understood from it yes

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:43 PM

Is this hp, what is taken as

max hp of the target

?(edited)

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:44 PM

But then I think back to the ticket where a stacked bennett had no changes to GU required on lectors compared to a stripped bennett

Max hp of target is their base hp after domain/abyss/coop modifiers

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:44 PM

Yeah. Was thinking the same. It doesnt add up

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:45 PM

Abyss 12 has a 2x multiplier on base hp iirc

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:46 PM

Oh gotchu. Got it confused for a bit. Anyways I'll test on a lvl 84 hydro abyss mage near the Luhua pool

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:47 PM

Oh actually, could you test a high level stripped electro unit on floor 2's abyss mage?

Just so I can find out whether base damage of reaction matters

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:47 PM

Okie. Lvl 66 Lisa or do you need more?

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:47 PM

66 should be fine...?

What's your highest level electro unit?

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:49 PM

Keqing at 80

Same for beidou

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:50 PM

Try stripping her artifacts and weapon, then infusing your attacks and autoing slowly like you would as lisa

Try not to hit the mage with the stiletto or the recast if you can

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:50 PM

Lvl 1 weapon too, right

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:50 PM

Yep, make her atk as low as possible

That way we can isolate the EC damage

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:53 PM

Okie

Btw

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:53 PM

~~record too if you can, my brain isn't active enough to understand straight numbers~~

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:53 PM

Zhongli phy can damage the hydro shield at low levels

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:53 PM

Yes because damage cost

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:53 PM

That damage stuff is true

Yeee

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 5:54 PM

I've always wanted to try out whacking a lector shield to death with a claymore

ZebinJun 12, 2021 5:54 PM

If only we had a level 40 herald to test out

Or lector

ZebinJun 12, 2021 6:19 PM

Lvl 80 keqing| stripped| lvl1 trav sword

Attachment: Genshin_Impact_2021-06-12_23-36-33_Trim1.mp4 (13092143 B)

Water EC and keqing EC values are 223 and 1163. 1 physical N1 was included here. Also 4-5 Environmental(water) EC was done(edited)

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 6:24 PM

Ah man making me download a file(edited)

1163 physical n1? Damn what

Ah I guess you do have her talents leveled huh

ZebinJun 12, 2021 6:25 PM

No lol

Keqing EC is 1163

Lol. I'll just give count. Thought you wanted to count

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 6:26 PM

Nah I downloaded, that water ec is a pain though

I read somewhere they have completely different gauge mechanics

ZebinJun 12, 2021 6:27 PM

Yeah. It is like 223 only tho

Total 7 hits with the last hit being an overkill

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 6:29 PM

Seems like you're definitely killing the shield faster than this though <@354915902128521216>(edited)

Counted 12 with a sliver of health left

ZebinJun 12, 2021 6:30 PM

Your EC is like 223 or something, right?

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 6:32 PM

This was 8 hits

I didn't look at the damage since we tried that before and it didn't go through the damage cost formula properly

I'm just ensuring we have basis to believe base reaction damage and EM affects it to begin with before moving into the math

I'll try overloads tomorrow, should be much easier to work with

Maybe those will go through damage cost

ZebinJun 12, 2021 6:34 PM

shield theory masochistJun 12, 2021 6:37 PM

Idk why I keep trying EC

I'm worried overload's pyro damage will be nullified against a pyro mage, however

I guess we'll see

KimaenJun 13, 2021 3:16 PM

so i guess my test with em lisa is not much significant do you guys need to test low lvl - low talent level vs higher lvl-higher talents, on the same enemy? i can lvl lisa for testing

shield theory masochistJun 13, 2021 3:38 PM

Talent levels are a direct correlation with damage

they could affect shield damage in a unique way but that isn't of the scope of this ticket

shield theory masochistJun 15, 2021 3:16 PM

porting my new videos here since they're related

shield theory masochistJun 15, 2021 3:23 PM

shield theory masochistJun 15, 2021 3:54 PM

explanation being ONLY the overload cost of 1.26gu is being used in these reactions. When the overload occurs near burning grass, as seen in lisa_overload and fischl_overload's last shot, overload occurs on both the grass and the abyss shield

normal damage here

double overload here

shield theory masochistJun 19, 2021 8:43 AM

fischl with 0EM, 1378 overloads, leaving the shield at minimal health after 6 hits(edited)

shield theory masochistJun 19, 2021 8:58 AM

fischl with 688 EM, 7019 overloads, leaving the shield at minimal health after 5 hits

shield theory masochistJun 19, 2021 9:11 AM

0EM after 6 shots

688EM after 5 shots

Large Slimes have 4x cicin hp and 8GU geo force shields. 12466 (cicin at level 91) * 4 = 49864 (slime hp) Large Geo Slimes have 10% RES across the board excluding their element (immune), meaning a 0.9x damage multiplier to overload. for 0EM: [(0.2 * (1378 * 0.9) * 8) / 49864] + 1.26 = damage per shot against geo slime = 1.2998 GU per shot 1.2998 * 6 = 7.799 GU total damage for 688EM: [(0.2 * (7019 * 0.9) * 8) / 49864] + 1.26 = damage per shot against geo slime = 1.4627 GU per shot 1.4627 * 5 = 7.3135 GU total damage

There may be fluctuations based on weird mechanics with character or grass being trigger, but destruction of the geo shield at 6 and 7 shots respectively was always consistent.

shield theory masochistJun 19, 2021 2:00 PM

<@!354915902128521216> look I did it

ZebinJun 19, 2021 3:22 PM

shield theory masochistJun 19, 2021 3:28 PM

Finding: Transformative damage is also applied in the damage cost of shield damage, and is affected by elemental mastery. Evidence: A borderline geo slime shield destruction was observed on a 0 EM 70/70 fischl's overloads onto a large geo slime's shield, with the shield almost being destroyed after 6 overloads. Increasing fischl's EM to 688 resulted in the shield not only breaking after 6 overloads, but almost breaking after 5. Relevant calculations and related images above show that these numbers make sense. Character damage was not a factor in the shield breaking as the overloads were procced from burning grass. There may have been fluctuations based on weird mechanics with character or grass being the overload's trigger, but destruction of the geo shield at 6 and 7 shots respectively was always consistent. Significance: It ensures that for shields where damage cost is a factor, we can assume that transformative reaction damages are also a factor, and interact in the way that one would expect from intuition (increasing damage with increasing EM).(edited)

Yuehai Ticketing SecretaryBOTJun 19, 2021 3:29 PM

Ticket Closed by @shield theory masochist