KQM | Genshin Impact
albedo-cinnabar-spindle-buffs-both-hits-of-e-n1-combo
141 messages
Ticket ToolSat, May 21, 2022 at 06:18 PM
@Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos - As an author, it is your responsibility to complete the ticket
Guidelines
- Name your ticket with
- When you are ready to submit the ticket, compile everything into one message following the format below. Then type
- The ticket will be scrapped if: No activity >1 week or open for >1 month.
Guidelines
- Name your ticket with
$rename <ticket name>- When you are ready to submit the ticket, compile everything into one message following the format below. Then type
$close or click the button; the ticket will automatically be moved to be reviewed.- The ticket will be scrapped if: No activity >1 week or open for >1 month.
Write-up Format
Theory/Finding/Bug: Title of your submission
Evidence: Explanations with calculations and/or Youtube/Imgur proofs
Significance: Conclusion
Evidence: Explanations with calculations and/or Youtube/Imgur proofs
Significance: Conclusion
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, May 21, 2022 at 06:20 PM
Finding:
The Cinnabar Spindle's passive seems to linger more than the 0.1s as stated in its description, leaving room for Albedo to perform a Skill > Normal Attack combo and have both hits be buffed by Spindle's Flat Damage bonus.
Evidence:
The weapon description of the Cinnabar Spindle reads:
With this explanation, since 0.1s is very short (<6 frames for 60fps), one might assume that even if Albedo performs a quick Normal Attack (N1) after casting his Elemental Skill (E), the first Transient Blossom will not receive the Spindle buff. However, testings have shown that this is not the case.
Testing sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gY82fEkHDonUlp8Bho76PusTo-HwGixK2L5ADGMEo40/edit?usp=sharing
Out of 53 runs where Albedo casted his Elemental Skill then quickly followed up with a Normal Attack, 39(74%) had the Transient Blossom that triggered also buffed by Spindle's passive. This became more consistent as the tester had gotten more used to the practice.
However, it is worth noting that in 19 additional runs where Albedo, with his Solar Isotoma already present, performed a Normal Attack > Skill > Normal Attack combo (N1 E N1), none of the runs managed to have the Spindle buffed either the Skill cast damage or the 2nd Transient Blossom damage. Since this is a common tech in use to allow Albedo to trigger 2 Blossoms bypassing the 2s cooldown, it sadly makes the slightly longer time window irrelevant in combat, except the very first Transient Blossom when Albedo has not placed a Solar Isotoma yet.
The Cinnabar Spindle's passive seems to linger more than the 0.1s as stated in its description, leaving room for Albedo to perform a Skill > Normal Attack combo and have both hits be buffed by Spindle's Flat Damage bonus.
Evidence:
The weapon description of the Cinnabar Spindle reads:
"Elemental Skill DMG is increased by 80% of DEF. The effect will be triggered no more than once every 1.5s and will be cleared 0.1s after the Elemental Skill deals DMG."
With this explanation, since 0.1s is very short (<6 frames for 60fps), one might assume that even if Albedo performs a quick Normal Attack (N1) after casting his Elemental Skill (E), the first Transient Blossom will not receive the Spindle buff. However, testings have shown that this is not the case.
Testing sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gY82fEkHDonUlp8Bho76PusTo-HwGixK2L5ADGMEo40/edit?usp=sharing
Out of 53 runs where Albedo casted his Elemental Skill then quickly followed up with a Normal Attack, 39(74%) had the Transient Blossom that triggered also buffed by Spindle's passive. This became more consistent as the tester had gotten more used to the practice.
However, it is worth noting that in 19 additional runs where Albedo, with his Solar Isotoma already present, performed a Normal Attack > Skill > Normal Attack combo (N1 E N1), none of the runs managed to have the Spindle buffed either the Skill cast damage or the 2nd Transient Blossom damage. Since this is a common tech in use to allow Albedo to trigger 2 Blossoms bypassing the 2s cooldown, it sadly makes the slightly longer time window irrelevant in combat, except the very first Transient Blossom when Albedo has not placed a Solar Isotoma yet.
Albedo Cinnabar Spindle Interaction Test
Calculations
Hypothesis:,The first Transient Blossom after performing E N1 will often times receive the buff from Spindle, despite the stated 0.1s time window
"Elemental Skill DMG is increased by 80% of DEF. The effect will be triggered no more than once every 1.5s and will be cleared 0.1s af...
Hypothesis:,The first Transient Blossom after performing E N1 will often times receive the buff from Spindle, despite the stated 0.1s time window
"Elemental Skill DMG is increased by 80% of DEF. The effect will be triggered no more than once every 1.5s and will be cleared 0.1s af...
ping dependency
It is also worthy noting that the initial tests were done with a high ping, mobile environment. A few follow up tests were done in a 60fps setting with ~135ms, which produced consistent spindle proc up till ~0.5s delay between the initial E hit and the Normal Attack. A third series of testing done in ~20ms ping has failed to produce a single successful spindle proc after 21 trials, suggesting that this spindle proc tech is in fact most likely only achievable with high ping.
Significance:
By performing a quick Normal Attack right after placing his Elemental Skill, Albedo is often able to get one extra proc of the Cinnabar Spindle flat damage increase buff at the beginning of combat. However, this result is only consistently observed when the ping of the player’s device is high.
It is also worthy noting that the initial tests were done with a high ping, mobile environment. A few follow up tests were done in a 60fps setting with ~135ms, which produced consistent spindle proc up till ~0.5s delay between the initial E hit and the Normal Attack. A third series of testing done in ~20ms ping has failed to produce a single successful spindle proc after 21 trials, suggesting that this spindle proc tech is in fact most likely only achievable with high ping.
Significance:
By performing a quick Normal Attack right after placing his Elemental Skill, Albedo is often able to get one extra proc of the Cinnabar Spindle flat damage increase buff at the beginning of combat. However, this result is only consistently observed when the ping of the player’s device is high.
^Inspired by the conversation thread from qph yesteday: https://discord.com/channels/763583452762734592/953149337813266452/977151558196277299
LeahSat, May 21, 2022 at 07:14 PM
and i thought cinnabar nerfed the e n1 combo
BabelTea DO YOU KYOTOSat, May 21, 2022 at 08:14 PM
might be related to the high ping, still good to know
nzpiefaceSat, May 21, 2022 at 09:11 PM
anyone have ideas for mechanics which cause this?
just extra duration or maybe smth like hitlag
kolibri._.Sat, May 21, 2022 at 09:52 PM
maybe the n1 hit arrives within 6 frames after the e dmg registers on the server?
nzpiefaceSat, May 21, 2022 at 10:01 PM
considering the ping which was decently stable (despite being very high), not really
considering the ping which was decently stable (despite being very high), not reallywhen you see damage numbers is directly related to when servers see those numbers
kolibri._.Sat, May 21, 2022 at 10:15 PM
looking at https://youtu.be/bw0gurOpHn8
I see it working 3 times (0:05, 0:33, 0:38):
0:05: albedo enters n1 hitlag 1 frame before the e dmg number
0:33 + 0:38: albedo enters n1 hitlag on the same frame as when the e dmg number appears
n1 hitlag start coincides with when the blossom spawns
I see it working 3 times (0:05, 0:33, 0:38):
0:05: albedo enters n1 hitlag 1 frame before the e dmg number
0:33 + 0:38: albedo enters n1 hitlag on the same frame as when the e dmg number appears
n1 hitlag start coincides with when the blossom spawns
looks like the tests were done at 30 fps?
this is just a guess but maybe it's: spindle passive is triggered by e hit -> n1 hit (blossom hit) arrives before "e dmg number + 0.1s" so it gets spindle passive
nzpiefaceSat, May 21, 2022 at 10:40 PM
ah yeah
that would make sense
BabelTea DO YOU KYOTOSat, May 21, 2022 at 10:44 PM
iirc echoes set has similar ping properties on the effect duration but dont quote me on that
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 03:42 AM
that’ll be my guess too, which is sort of counter intuitive. Is that how duration is counted for every other effect as well?
And yes, I’m on a 30fps mobile with medium graphics and high ping 
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:02 AM
eh
depends on effect
it makes sense to me though
e lands-> send to server
e damage <- receive from server
n1 lands-> send to server
e trigger (within 0.1s of e damage so it has cinnabar buff) -> send to server
n1 damage <- receive from server
e trigger w/ buff <- receive from server
e damage <- receive from server
n1 lands-> send to server
e trigger (within 0.1s of e damage so it has cinnabar buff) -> send to server
n1 damage <- receive from server
e trigger w/ buff <- receive from server
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:05 AM
but for the user that just doesn’t seem right
shouldn’t they have checked the timing between E hit and N1 hit?
but for the user that just doesn’t seem right
shouldn’t they have checked the timing between E hit and N1 hit?
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:05 AM why should they
why should theyoh
i should reword that
i forgot "hit" is actual in game terminology
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:06 AM
right now you’re saying they’re checking between when E damage is sent to client and when N1 hit arrives?
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:06 AM
aight my bad
whenever you land an attack, it sends data to the server for damage calculation and so on
whenever the server receives that data packet and processes it, you only then hit and deal damage
wait
wait albedo triggers from damage
hol' up
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:08 AM
this should be smth like:
e lands-> send to server
e damage <- receive from server
n1 lands-> send to server
n1 damage <- receive from server
e trigger (within 0.1s of e damage so it has cinnabar buff) -> send to server
e trigger w/ buff <- receive from server that doesnt seem right lmao
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:08 AM
so if we number this
this should be smth like:
this should be smth like:
1. e lands-> send to server
2. e damage <- receive from server
3. n1 lands-> send to server
4. n1 damage <- receive from server
5. e trigger (within 0.1s of e damage so it has cinnabar buff) -> send to server
6. e trigger w/ buff <- receive from server you’re saying it’s <0.1s between 2 and 5?
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:09 AM maybe your n1 lands before the damage is received from the server
maybe your n1 lands before the damage is received from the serverMarkoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:11 AM
so 3 happens before 2?
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:12 AM
maybe sometimes it does, maybe sometimes it doesnt
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:13 AM
but that’s weird, I just expect the server to judges the timing between 1 and 5, which is what the description means
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 04:24 AM
most things cant measure 1
the only thing ive seen that can do that are reaction triggers
kolibri._.Sun, May 22, 2022 at 07:45 AM
I don't think it's counter intuitive. I would assume the cinnabar passive triggers right when your e lands and only expires after e damage + 0.1s. If your n1 lands (blossom spawns) within that time it should have the passive
I think it's more like this:
steps 2 and 3 could be swapped, all that matters is that 2 happens within e damage + 0.1s
1. e lands (trigger spindle) -> send dmg info to server
2. n1 lands + e trigger -> send dmg info to server
3. e damage (spindle expires 0.1s after this) <- receive from server
4. n1 damage <- receive from server
5. e trigger damage <- receive from serversteps 2 and 3 could be swapped, all that matters is that 2 happens within e damage + 0.1s
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 08:18 AM
albedo E is triggered on damage
not when attacks land
which is why im very confused
it is explicitly the one thing that says it triggers on damage, and actually triggers on damage
if you want to contest that claim you can unplug your internet cable
kolibri._.Sun, May 22, 2022 at 08:20 AM
the e trigger visibly spawns on n1 landing even though it's supposed to be on damage
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 08:24 AM
wait
wot
kolibri._.Sun, May 22, 2022 at 08:24 AM
how does that make sense
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 08:24 AM
kolibri._.Sun, May 22, 2022 at 08:25 AM
if it's supposed to trigger only after n1 damage
nzpiefaceSun, May 22, 2022 at 08:25 AM
fuck
wait
fuckyou're right
did they change this
wait a second
mother fuckers
i was sure
I WAS SURE
ミルクルクルSun, May 22, 2022 at 09:45 AM
in my experience of having sometimes shitty internet, it can proc at extremely high ping before NA damage pops up
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 22, 2022 at 12:56 PM
I have no idea how you guys experience Genshin in the lower orbit lower pings, this “effect happens before damage shows up 0.2s later” thing is just normal to me
maybe a repeat test with a low ping will resolve the uncertainty here
oh I just saw the theory-hunt
nzpiefaceTue, May 24, 2022 at 07:49 AM
but anyways
now all you need to do is check if the albedo hitmark appeared within 6 frames of the damage number for you trials
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosTue, May 24, 2022 at 12:58 PM
well
I’d like to if I can do frame counts
but I can’t 
paichlearSat, May 28, 2022 at 02:57 PM
frame counts aren't that complicated, copy paste the video link into http://www.watchframebyframe.com/, set the fps to 60 and use the arrows to go frame by frame
additionally you can click on the timestamp to turn it from hh:mm:ss to frames
Reply to paichlear: frame counts aren't that complicated, copy paste the video link into http://www.watchframebyframe.com/, set the fps to 60 and use the arrows to go frame by frame
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, May 28, 2022 at 03:15 PM paichlear: frame counts aren't that complicated, copy paste the video link into http://www.watchframebyframe.com/, set the fps to 60 and use the arrows to go frame by frameoh wow this kinda thing exists
Thanks!
(also my game is 30fps so I think 30fps will do, right?
Thanks!(also my game is 30fps so I think 30fps will do, right?
okay I checked a few clips (skipped some cuz the resolution became unintelligible halfway in). Idk what sort of conclusion there can be here if I'm supposed to look for ❤️ frames (since I'm on 30fps )
). Idk what sort of conclusion there can be here if I'm supposed to look for ❤️ frames (since I'm on 30fps )paichlearSat, May 28, 2022 at 08:00 PM
i'm not sure what you're trying to find but a lot of things are different between 30 and 60fps, and reaction texts usually appear before hitmarks so afaik that's the first sign of a hit landing
kolibri._.Sat, May 28, 2022 at 08:21 PM
from what I understood, the spindle buff expires at e dmg number + 0.1s assuming you proc it with your e, so for 30 fps you'd have to see whether the blossom spawns before e dmg number + 3 frames and check whether that lines up with your tests
nzpiefaceSun, May 29, 2022 at 04:36 AM
no, it doesnt
no, it doesntMarkoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 29, 2022 at 04:37 AM
which part doesn’t?
nzpiefaceSun, May 29, 2022 at 04:39 AM
30fps will do part
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, May 29, 2022 at 04:40 AM
are you saying choosing play by 30fps on the website won’t work, or just doing my testings in 30fps in general will not work
cuz if it’s the 2nd, I’m basically done for
nzpiefaceSun, May 29, 2022 at 06:55 AM
testing in 30fps
the game has slightly different behaviours for time-based things at 30fps and 60fps
like your conclusions are fine for 30fps, but we'll need to retest and so on for 60fps to see if the time-frame is the same
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosFri, June 3, 2022 at 03:35 AM
Well, I'm...out with my potat phone
This ticket has entered the much feared limbo state rather than being closed in 2 days
Well, I'm...out with my potat phone
This ticket has entered the much feared limbo state rather than being closed in 2 days
Ticket ToolFri, June 3, 2022 at 04:44 PM
Are you sure you would like to close this ticket?
paichlearSat, June 4, 2022 at 03:27 PM
if you need 60fps recordings i'll do it, just be specific in what you need
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, June 4, 2022 at 03:37 PM
I think the testing needed is simply to perform E N1 with Albedo and Spindle and see how consistently does the N1 get buffed by Spindle too, but I'm honestly not too sure how to determine when exactly does the Spindle buff start and disappear. think Pieface said to check "if the albedo hitmark appeared within 6 frames of the damage number for trials", but I'm not sure of the reasoning how that will be indicative cuz I'm monke brain
paichlearSat, June 4, 2022 at 03:38 PM
how fast after e input should n1 input be
or do you want a range to test
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, June 4, 2022 at 03:43 PM
just as fast as you can
for me it seems to be about <0.3s
paichlearSat, June 4, 2022 at 04:06 PM
n1 input needs to be at least 0.48s after e but it's inconsistent so i set it to 0.5s
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, June 4, 2022 at 04:15 PM
so it's....macro?
paichlearSat, June 4, 2022 at 04:16 PM
yes
unless you wanted my skill issue recording
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, June 4, 2022 at 04:17 PM
I mean it looks fine at a glance
paichlearSat, June 4, 2022 at 08:20 PM
tried it again with different delays between e and n1 (from 29f to 36f, 1 clip each in order) https://youtu.be/4tRpkXsFSpI
when cinnabar doesn't proc: 4630 non-crit / 9500 crit
when cinnabar does proc: supposedly 6261 non-crit / 12846 crit
not sure what the 6987 was
when cinnabar doesn't proc: 4630 non-crit / 9500 crit
when cinnabar does proc: supposedly 6261 non-crit / 12846 crit
not sure what the 6987 was
Albedo E N1 different delays
in order: 29f (483ms), 30f (500ms), 31f (517ms), 32f (533ms), 33f (550ms), 34f (567ms), 35f (583ms), 36f (600ms)
lmk if you need any other recordings
Reply to paichlear: tried it again with different delays between e and n1 (from 29f to 36f, 1 clip each in order) https://youtu.be/4tRpkXsFSpI
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, June 5, 2022 at 03:59 AM paichlear: tried it again with different delays between e and n1 (from 29f to 36f, 1 clip each in order) https://youtu.be/4tRpkXsFSpII think the 6987 was cuz Masanori is just starting up so he applies -80% all damage% to any attacks (per the wiki)
I counted the procs for your inputs, seems like 0.5s is around the the max limit for spindle buff to proc consistently while at 60fps and ~135ms
paichlearSat, June 11, 2022 at 11:56 PM
@Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos is there anything else you want to test or is this ticket ready to be closed?
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSun, June 12, 2022 at 11:45 AM
I don’t think I have time to redo more testings so I think what is currently here should be done (edited the finding/significance with the 60fps tests). I should close it 12 hours
I don’t think I have time to redo more testings so I think what is currently here should be done (edited the finding/significance with the 60fps tests). I should close it 12 hours!rm 12 hours
(!) Keqing's Eternal AssistantSun, June 12, 2022 at 11:46 AM
Alright Markoda, I'll remind you about something in 12 hours. ID: 42347203
Ticket ToolMon, June 13, 2022 at 01:07 AM
Ticket Closed by @Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos
Support team ticket controls
TibotMon, July 4, 2022 at 06:27 PM
@Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos
https://youtu.be/9muSGfUtjG4
A few follow up tests were done in a 60fps setting with ~135fpsshould be 135ms
This result does not seem to be severely affected by pingHaven't been able to replicate this ingame at 21ms ping
https://youtu.be/9muSGfUtjG4
TiBotMon, July 4, 2022 at 06:27 PM
Ticket re-opened by @Tibot
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosTue, July 5, 2022 at 04:30 AM
I’ll check it out again ”soon”
TiBotTue, July 12, 2022 at 04:45 AM
This channel hasn't been active in the past week! This channel hasn't been active in the past week!
This channel hasn't been active in the past week! This channel hasn't been active in the past week!
vinsetteTue, July 19, 2022 at 03:51 PM
@Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosTue, July 19, 2022 at 04:19 PM
GAA ate up all my free time I forgo this exists
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosTue, July 19, 2022 at 04:21 PM
I changed the typo and added the low ping result in the ticket language now
TiBotTue, July 26, 2022 at 04:30 PM This channel hasn't been active in the past week! This channel hasn't been active in the past week!
This channel hasn't been active in the past week! This channel hasn't been active in the past week!
effab1eSat, August 6, 2022 at 08:17 AM
@Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos
Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ GeosSat, August 6, 2022 at 08:54 AM
I have
no idea why this ticket is still open
oh wait that means I should close it right
Apparently I should have read more on how to write a ticket
1
1$close
TiBotSat, August 6, 2022 at 08:59 AM
Ticket closed by @Markoda | Jean ♡ me but I ♡ Geos. If there are any issues with it - it can be reopened by the owner or staff by using the buttons below or
/open.Ticket verified by @Tibot
Ticket verified by @eriri🌸
Creating transcript...